Water quality in Malta – Interview with Phil Richards from TAPP Water Malta

Written by Sintija Krastenberga | Published on March 3, 2022

Water – one of the most crucial resources for humanity. While many countries in Europe can enjoy high drinking water quality standards, in Malta this is a question of debate. Is the water from the tap drinkable or not? Many here do not dare to consume it and instead opt for other solutions – either huge water filters or plastic bottled water, both of which leave a high environmental footprint.

A Malta Climate Action Award winner, mission and customer-driven entrepreneur, and simply a joyous human being – Phil Richards – sheds light on water quality and plastic bottle pollution in Malta. He runs the company TAPP Water Malta – a distributor of an innovative water filtration supplier based in Spain. With this company he currently serves more than 1800 households around the country. This is the first publication of our coming article series “Sustainability Landscape In Malta”.

Interview contents:

• Phil’s journey towards TAPP Water Malta

• The importance of mission and customer driven approach

• Water quality and infrastructure in Malta

• Ambition towards circularity with TAPP

• Plastic waste around the country

• Habits and awareness of Maltese people and how to create change

• Plastic bottle return scheme and myths about plastic and recycling

• Malta Climate Action Awards

 

This interview took place in early January, 2022, only days after New Year’s Eve. While usually work would take time to pick up after the long holidays, it was not the case here. Despite the chaos and sudden restrictions due to the new Corona variant, some people waste no time and remain focused on what they are here for. Phil Richards has been one of them and has agreed to do an interview for Your Sustainability Guide.

We are about to cover topics such as running a business as a sole entrepreneur, TAPP Water and importance of mission driven attitude, sustainability, water quality and plastic pollution in Malta, innovation, industry myths, people, and change.

We start the online meeting and I see Phil – just back from another delivery for one of his clients, with a face mask still around his chin, his dreadlocks neatly tied up and warm smile on his face. “He is really not a typical businessman, is he”, I thought. The nice and welcoming vibes were getting me curious and excited. I asked if I may record the session, he takes away his mask, and so here we go.

Well, hello, Phil.

 

Hello.

 

First, I would like you to tell your story. How did you become the Phil now who is running TAPP in Malta?

 

I was in financial services for many years, but when I was about 40, I started to change my life. I needed a change because I wasn’t happy, and that meant changing certain behaviors. It led me down a path of sorts, what could be called a spiritual growth, spiritual awakening. I carried on working in financial services till about 2018. I’m 60 now, so it’s been an 19-year journey.

 

I was looking for something to do. I tried to be a yoga instructor and a meditation instructor as I’ve been meditating for 18 years, but I did not find myself very comfortable in front of the class, I was better at the back. It wasn’t working, so I was looking for something else.

 

At that time, I was also looking for a sustainable water filter for home. A filter where you didn’t throw away the plastic, that wasn’t a reverse osmosis, and it wasn’t a ceramic filter. I’d had reverse osmosis previously, then moved to a ceramic filter. The ceramic filters are quite good, but at the end, both were very wasteful.

 

I ended up on the TAPP Water website. I bought it, installed it, used for about a month. I thought – “Well, is interesting. Actually, this needs to come to Malta.”

 

It was right at the beginning of COVID. I was under the lockdown straightaway. I had this time, the first 6-7 weeks, to create a new business. So there, you know, the website logistics, first marketing, testing the product. We did the first test with about 20 people and got some good results, and then went full on with the first order and the first sales.

 

It has been an interesting journey. I launched it on June 8, 2020, and so we’re, nearly 18 months into the journey now, with 1800 households using the product.

 

What I liked about TAP Water, is that they’re very mission oriented. They are on a mission to save 10 billion plastic bottles being used every year by 2026. Our part of that in Malta is 10 million, just a small part of it. That would be achieved with 10,000 households by 2026, and we’re up to 1800 now. We are on the way.

 

It seems like a big ask to get to 10,000 households but it is only 5% of the households in Malta, so it is possible. Then we’ll be saving 10 million plastic bottles a year. Now we are at around 1.2 million – something like that in Malta. It is great. I mean – that’s one million bottles less.

 

Did you always want to do entrepreneurship, run your own business or was it more like – this filter was so good that you have to bring it to other people?

 

Well, I’ve always been an entrepreneur. In financial services, I ran an accountancy practice, but I’m not an accountant. I ran the practice with quite a few clients in the in the UK, and the moved on as an alternative investment analyst in Malta, where I was working for other people. A lot of my years has been as an entrepreneur in various things, some of which succeeded really well, and some of which didn’t succeed whatsoever, but they were interesting learning experiences.

 

In this occasion, being an entrepreneur comes from a different focus, it is not only about euros and cents, but about the mission. As a financial services person, euros and cents are very natural to me, and I do keep an eye on them, but the whole mission of TAPP Water in Malta is 10,000 customers, 10,000 households using the product. This really changes my perspective, especially when it comes to customer service, because it is less about euros.

 

It is really important for us that our customers continue using the product. If somebody has a problem, we replace it. If something goes wrong, we go and fix it. TAPP Water in Barcelona is very much along those lines, their customer service is great. Their support to me as a distributor is also really strong.

 

However, the euros also have to make sense, it has to be a profitable business. This is not an NGO, it’s not a charity, it has to support me and pay for my time. The company also needs more staff, because now it is just me, but it has not grown there yet.

 

But yeah, it has been really interesting to focus on the mission. The mission is the number of households using the product, the mission is the number of plastic bottles that we avoid using completely. The number of bottles that don’t go into the grey recycling bag. That is what it’s about. And the total focus on that as one person in one little business is has been a really interesting journey, it has changed my perspective.

 

We got listed as finalists for the Malta Consumer Association, it is an awards event, a competition where customers vote for you. We were a finalist on the online shopping customer service awards, which is amazing. We do have a really good customer service record. I’m not naturally that person, however, the change in perspective, because of the mission and keeping a household has turned me into being more naturally that.

 

It has been a whole 18 months of personal growth for me. It’s been very enjoyable, which is not an experience I’ve always had with customer service. And it’s been a really beautiful thing. It’s been very good for me, which has been a surprise because that wasn’t my plan.

 

Yeah, I understand. I find this journey of self-exploration one of the most exciting things about entrepreneurship. You are talking about the shift in perspective from not only counting the euros but to actually achieving the goal – I find that really significant. Can you say more about it?

 

Yeah. It has been interesting, because I went to the courier company that we used this morning, and one of the couriers said to me – “You have such nice clients. How do you do that?”

It is actually true. Our clients are really friendly, and very nice and very grateful. I don’t know whether it’s an aspect because they’re making a sustainability change, or whether they’re just saving money.

 

I know that customers have our TAPP Water product for different reasons. It’s not just about sustainability. Sometimes it’s about convenience, not having to carry plastic bottles four flights of stairs, or an elderly person who doesn’t want to carry plastic bottles at all.

Sometimes it’s about saving money. Sometimes it’s purely about not using plastic. It just depends on the on the person. But overall, people are really friendly, and very understanding, even when there’s a problem. It has been a real blessing. This enables you to be more positive, take action, and keeps customers using the product.

 

We also offer a 45-day guarantee. If they don’t like it, they can return it. 95% of the people keep it, which is great. Some people do have a problem with it – could be the taste, could be the look, could be anything. But most people keep it.

 

Those who want to, they return it, and we give the money back – sometime before we even have received the filter back, because then it’s just done. People are very good with it on the whole, which, again, is a great blessing and a great learning for me. I guess what goes around comes around.

 

Yeah, you really build trust with that, don’t you?

 

Yeah. And it’s been good for me to be that person. I’ve enjoyed this. This doesn’t feel like work. Feels a bit pressured every now and then, but because there’s only me doing it, but it doesn’t feel like work. It’s enjoyable.

 

Wonderful. It is so amazing to hear that.

I want to ask – how do you feel the reception has been of TAPP filters in Malta? In some sources I read that drinking the water from an actual tap is safe, and some say that it’s not. The research says that around 50% people here or even less do drink it, but most prefer plastic bottles. How have you felt that TAPP has been received here? Do you think that people are willing to change their drinking patterns?

 

At the beginning I did a lot of the deliveries myself, went into people’s homes and fitted the filters myself. There’s probably quite a few hundred people that I visited at home and talked to. People’s motivations are different. It’s normally convenience, money, or sustainability. One of those things. Sometimes it’s health.

 

What’s interesting is that the water quality here in Malta has improved. I have been here for 14 years, and it has improved to no end over this time.

 

The water services corporation has put a lot of investment, some of it funded by the EU, but a lot of it has gone into infrastructure. Pipes have been laid all over the place, and the water is definitely much, much better. However, because of the processes used, which is the reverse osmosis, and then the piping connecting to various houses, there is a pressure within the system to keep the water balanced between being safe to drink and tasting good.

 

At some point, you must treat the water – you need to add chlorine, you need to add some other products to the water in order to make it safe, because safety has to be the number one priority. Especially for a large infrastructure like this.

 

Now, according to the WHO and EU guidelines, Malta’s water meets the standards and is good enough to drink. However, testing is being done only in specific moments, and one minute later the water could be different. By testing in different places, you can get results that are overall pretty stable, but in reality the quality will still fluctuate.

 

So, having a filter on the tap even if your water is safe to drink according to all the guidelines, ensures that you will definitely get a quality of water that you are happy with as it removes anything harmful that does come through. And it tastes much better because it also removes the chlorine.

 

When it comes to people’s reaction to it.. In Malta, we’ve either had reverse osmosis, or we’ve had the jug filters, or we drink the tap water, or we’ve used bottled water. Everyone knows that and thinks of that. TAPP is something different, so it is viewed as new.

 

If you compare it to a reverse osmosis system, people will obviously trust the 500 euro or 300 euro reverse osmosis system that’s a big huge thing that you put under the sink. It’s obviously working even if you don’t test it, because you put all that money in because it’s such a big system.

 

Whereas, that little thing that you stick on the tap – “What is that about?” – this is the kind of reaction I get. I mean – “Surely that can’t work, it’s only 60 euros, and I paid 300 for my reverse osmosis!”

 

That’s why we had it independently tested in Spain, which costs a lot of money to send it. Results showed that the quality was already good before, but it was very good when it had been filtered. For that cost, it’s better to have a filter than drink it straight out of the tap, because then you know for sure, and it tastes better.

A customer sent me a picture of a used filter refill cartridge and asked – “Is this right? It’s dark brown.” Because over three months it will have done its job and collected the residue, sediment, dust and rust, and all sorts of things. It’s exactly right, because that means it’s working, and it’s a good time to change it because it’s been three months.

 

So, we can see it taking stuff out. Now, would you want to be drinking all of that stuff over a period of three months?

 

I laugh nervously.

 

Well, probably not. The thing is – it’s not necessarily the water that was like that when it arrived. It may be your building pipes, it may be the street pipes, it could be anything.

 

That’s why the filter is useful because you’re filtering at the point of delivery. So, what’s happened before that doesn’t matter to a great extent. When it comes out, it’s been through that filtering process.

 

EcoPro and EcoPro Compact, which are our two main sellers, and the PitcherPro, they’re all designed for public drinking water. Then we have another filter, which we can use here for wells, or holes and that kind of stuff. That’s the Ultrafiltration filter, used in places like Nigeria, Ghana, Mexico, Venezuela, Colombia, where the public water quality is not as reliable. That is an interesting product because it removes, I think 99% point something percent of all the bacteria.

 

I do not sell it here as much, because it is not as sustainable as the Eco filters. However, it is still much better than 1000 plastic bottles a year.

 

Yeah, it’s better than all those plastic bottles and all the time and effort you have to put in, for sure.

 

Eco Pro is much more sustainable, because the amount of plastic, the non-degradable part actually generated is very, very small.

 

I inquired about whether there is a way to perhaps recycle these non-degradable parts, and to my surprise, Phil had an answer for me.

 

Okay, so that’s our next journey. I’m really interested in that. We would like to collect the old filters, break them down and do something with them.

 

There are five components inside and we can deal with most of them. For example, there are two pieces of ABS plastic, we could chip it, shred it, it could be melted and given away to someone else to process.

 

There is also an activated carbon block inside which would be more difficult to deal with because it has been used as a filter, it has contaminants in it. But we think there are ways to reprocess that too. There is a possibility to use it in building materials or perhaps composting it, although that might be slightly more difficult, but we can find a way.

 

So, in fact, very soon we will be collecting the old filters because we need the raw material to practice with.

 

This is my mission for this year. I would also like to make this possible for you, the customers, because we would be the first company that I’m aware of that would be focused on this.

 

It is really great to see you plan to step up your game even though you already do a lot. This is going to enable the circular economy even more here in Malta.

I have a question on something a bit, maybe different. I’ve been here in Malta for three months now. Besides seeing beautiful sunny streets and palm trees and all this nature, and the sea, I also see other views, like… trash in the ditches and canals, in half done construction sites, and on the side of the roads. What do you think contributes here to this?

 

What do I think contributes? I don’t know. Malta also has some wonderful land. I’ve walked around Malta and Gozo several times on the coast. It’s beautiful.

 

But it is true – wherever you go there is a plastic bottle. I just focus on plastic, but you see lots of other stuff as well. I think the saddest ones is the piles of construction debris just left in the middle by a farm track, or by one of those farm walls, that is quite sad.

 

 

 

 

I think there’s been a lot more done about it over the years. There’s a lot more awareness, but I think it takes a long time to change people’s habits. It is quite complicated.

 

There are certain parts of society that don’t think about this stuff, or don’t think any further than ‘’oh, I just need to get rid of this stuff’’. But one of the things that Malta Climate Awards showed me is that there is lots of people trying to do lots of things. Therefore, I believe the culture will change.

 

I also see my responsibility as a foreigner. I am a guest in the country I now call home, but I’m still a foreigner. I just have to do my bit and focus on enabling other people to do so too.

 

I am glad just to focus on one action. All I’m trying to do is help people stop using plastic bottles for drinking water. That’s what I can cope with. I don’t think I can cope with anything else, so I focus on that.

 

But yes, I see the rubbish in the country, and I think it’s sad, but I also see rubbish in other countries. Some countries where you see much less. But for instance, I travelled to another country just before Christmas, and it is a beautiful country, but there are similar issues.

 

Right. Do you think it has to do with people’s habits, attitudes and awareness?  

 

Well, it has to be the people. Because it doesn’t just magically appear.

 

Of course.

 

It has to be people and, it could be foreigners like me – or not, but it’s just the people.

 

We do this to our planet ourselves.

 

If we’re in education, that’s what we have to educate people about, to take personal responsibility for personal actions. There are some really great memes that go around. For example – what we need is a small action taken by 7 billion people. That is why I ended up just focusing on plastic bottles for drinking water.

 

Yeah, I think that’s great.

 

If I just focus on that, I have the energy to put into that. It doesn’t mean to say that I don’t care about all the other things, because I do.

 

It doesn’t mean to say that I don’t have opinions or that I wouldn’t like to do things a better way, but I have to focus. It’s difficult enough for me to make those changes in my own life as an individual.

 

I will still buy a plastic bottle with a fizzy drink in it, because there are some fizzy drinks I like. I try not to drink too much of them, for obvious reasons, but I like some of those things. I really try not to do it too often. But I am nowhere near perfection.

 

There’s a lot that I would love to encourage. I don’t have much black bag waste, but there still is black bag waste. I wish I could do more to say that there wasn’t, but I’m not perfect. I’m lazy. I’m a human being. You know, I use things and throw them away, but I do try not to. I’m doing better.

 

You’re doing your part let’s just say.

 

I’m better than I was, I think.

 

Yeah, I think you’re very right about that. I mean, habits die hard, right? And it is difficult to change for people in general. Any small action can contribute at the end, I guess.

 

I try not to get too hung up on all the 100% zero waste. It is too much for me, my head can’t cope with it – it’s a too high a mountain for me to climb. But if I can just stop this behavior, and this behavior, and this behavior, maybe I can keep that going.

 

Do you think this issue is also common for other people? That they think – oh, if I want to be sustainable, then I have to become vegan, or never use any plastic. Do you think this is something that prevents other people from taking action?

 

Yes, I do.

 

Actually, I think there’s lots of mixed messaging from different agendas, and I think all the agendas are probably right in their own way.

 

The zero waste agenda I feel is right. But the thing is – if I was a household with kids, family, wife, cars, and all of it, I know how difficult it is to hold down two full-time jobs and run all of that and be sustainable. It’s very difficult.

 

One of the things that interests me most with the filters, apart from zero waste, is that I can see, in Malta in particular, there is an area of society that is close to or below the poverty line that cannot make sustainable choices.

 

As a matter of fact, this area of society would find it easier to buy plastic bottled water in a six pack at 2.50 euros, then buy a water filter at 60 euros. This is an issue because sustainability doesn’t have to be more expensive.

 

It is an issue. I think the area of people close to or at poverty level, whether that’s the elderly, the vulnerable – that area of society being prevented from making sustainable choices purely because of finance, is a real shame.

 

We see other corporations actually using that. In Asian countries, for instance, and South America – you can buy little sachets of shampoo and deodorant, tiny little plastic sachets of soap or washing powder or something, because they’re so cheap, and that is what people can afford. But they’re just using more plastic.

 

That’s one area that I’m really interested in, and I hope to be working with an NGO this year to try and fix that, or make sure our filters are available to that area of society at a decent cost. That makes it attractive to them to use.

You would basically enable that area society to use these filters and to become more sustainable.

 

Right. Because why should they be the people who in two full time jobs be the ones to make sustainable change?

 

Yeah. Right. Makes sense.

One thing I read about plastic bottles is that they’re now implementing return schemes here in Malta. Do you know about that? I’m sure you know about it.

 

I do.

 

What do you think about this? How is it progressing? I haven’t seen one of those machines yet, maybe I am living in a cave… Please tell – what’s your take on it?

 

As far as I’m aware, the machines should be on the streets in April of 2022.

 

I think it will help. In 2020, if I’m correct, waste services processed 10 million plastic bottles. In 2021 it was 69 million plastic bottles. That’s a hell of an improvement, which is great.

 

But – it’s still a lot of plastic bottles!

 

So, whilst the return refund scheme should boost that number to a great level, I think we still use 200 million plastic bottles a year in Malta. Quite a few. There’s still 140 million going out there somewhere – in the landfill or on the beach.

 

The returns scheme should definitely help, but I think what we have to remember is – you have to pay 10 cents to get your 10 cents back. I can see people using it. But will it solve the problem? No. I think it’s the wrong way round.

 

I think we should just stop using them. That’s where I come from. We shouldn’t have to recycle them because we stopped using them. But then, at the same time, there’s more plastic bottles than just the drinking water plastic bottles.

 

So, in a nutshell – sure, it will help. And yes, anything we can do is going to be a help, but if we didn’t use them in the first place, it would be better.

 

Don’t you think this would be also a threat for TAPP? 

 

No, not at all. No, I think it’s a benefit.

 

Imagine – you can buy your plastic bottle, you get your six pack. Even if it’s a free one, you’re going to pay your 60 cents deposit. Then you have to put it in the back of the car, and you have to take it home. Then you have to take it out of the back of the car and you have to take it upstairs. Then you have to wrap up, take off all the plastic packaging, and then you have to use them one at a time.

 

You won’t put it in the grey recycle bag, but you will put it back in your car, drive to the machine, put them through the machine, and you get your 60 cents back, which you take to the supermarket and buy another pack.

 

Or – you could just turn on the tap and drink water.

 

Wow, right.

 

I actually think it’d be great benefit for TAPP. I mean, the lie that is being sold to us with plastic is that it is convenient. There was definitely a stage when it was convenient, and it may be convenient for someone, but this general sort of lie, this marketing story that it’s convenient, is told to us so that we use plastic bottles.

 

When we use plastic bottles, we are using oil, and the oil is in the ground taken out and then sold. That makes money. So, the reason we’re sold this marketing myth of convenience is so that oil companies make money. That’s all it is.

 

 

When you see through it, it’s just oil. So, you’re wrapping your water in oil, and you’re taking it home.

 

Then you’re giving it back and people say – Oh, but it can be recycled. You see – recycling is also a bit of a myth that we’ve been sold. You can recycle a plastic bottle, as far as I know, about once or twice. The bottles made of recycled plastic are more expensive than of virgin plastic.

 

Let’s say, you recycle plastic, and it is great that we recycled 69 million bottles last year. But that’s because when we recycle them in Malta, we sell them to another country. We don’t know what they do with them. They could burn them.

 

And, again, you know, without getting into the politics of waste management and stuff like that, which I’m not qualified to do. However, it seems alien to me to buy a plastic bottle, squash it and then it is burned for electricity or heat.

 

Not in Malta, but other countries burning non-recyclable waste is popular. Sometimes plastic gets contaminated, dirty, and it cannot be recycled, so it becomes non-recyclable waste. So, then you burn that because you can.

 

That is why if we keep it simple and just don’t use them, then we’re in a different perspective.

 

So, the first thing is refuse. Second thing is reuse. Then later on the list, you get to recycle. Again, in my own life, I am not perfect.. and I don’t always refuse when I could. I’m just trying to be better, I’m not trying to be perfect at it.

 

It is actually quite mind blowing to think about it – how we’re actually just wrapping water in oil, and, perhaps, the illusion of what happens to that recycled or waste. I think it’s really important that you bring this up, because many people, including myself, are not perfect, and may not know about these things. I’m actually learning a lot from talking to people like you and doing research.

However, in my observation there is a lot of effort put in here into collecting waste and making sure that it’s getting in the right area, but we don’t know what’s being done to it, do I understand correctly?

 

We don’t know what happens when it leaves the country.

 

WasteServ and Water Services Corporation have a lot to do and a lot to deal with, and I think they are doing a hell of a job, great improvements have been made. It is much more complicated than what we consumers see. But that is also why I take the responsibility and try not to buy and have it end up in the grey recycling bag, so nobody has to do anything with it. This is where consumers have the power.

 

I’ve talked to some of the retailers that are involved in the distribution of plastic bottled water. There is interest in having a different way, but the demand from people in Malta is for bottled water. People keep buying it, because, for whatever reason, they have not decided to shift to an alternative.

 

I know the reasons why people make the decision, but I don’t really know the reasons why they don’t. I can imagine why – perhaps, it does not matter that much for them. You just never make that – “oh, yes, I must do that one day”. Some people who I’ve talked with, they are using TAPP and are very happy about it, saying that they never liked those plastic bottles anyway.

 

I think part of our job is educational and part of is inspirational. There’s no point in telling people that they have to make a change, I don’t think it works at all. I think we have to inspire people to make a change.

 

One of the things I love is doing the stats every month. We count up how many plastic bottles our customers will have saved as far as we know. Now we are at 1800 households, that will become 1900, 2000 and so on. There we can really see the effects happening, and I think that’s how to inspire people.

 

Our customers tend to talk to other customers, inspire them. For example, when someone goes around and sees the TAPP filter and says – ‘’Oh, what’s that? Oh, it’s a water filter. Oh, does it work? Why don’t you try it? What do you think? Well, it tastes alright. I’m gonna go and get one of those, thank you very much.’’ And that’s how people find out about it quite often.

 

Inspiring people to make change is what we need to do. It is not easy, because sometimes there is another priority to buy instead of a filter. However, making it easy by design is also important. That is one of TAPPs mission in Barcelona.

 

The whole design of the filter is to make it easy for people to start. 90% of people can fit it themselves. 10% of people need assistance, or a different adapter. Still, it is easy to fit, easy to use, switch it on and off. Easy to remember to change the filters. That is all built into the design, and that’s to try and empower consumer behaviour change.

 

Yes, the change is not easy, but it’s possible, and thanks to companies like yours. You enable people to do it by a simple solution to a difficult problem.

We’re already closing to the end, but I still have two questions for you. You already mentioned before that you got the Malta Climate Action Awards in 2021. Congratulations on that! I think that’s quite a milestone. How was that experience for you? I mean, you only started the company in 2020 and you get an award like this.

 

I think the customers got that, the households that made the change. We won the award because when we applied 1350 householders had made that change.

 

It was just a complete shock. The entering process took quite a lot of effort and calculations, but it was lovely to be there. It was a complete shock, I wasn’t expecting it whatsoever. I also haven’t worn a suit for a while as well, so that was fun.

What was really nice was talking to some people from the ministries and people from different organizations, and to see how much energy there is to actually doing something. It is fascinating to see because we are all on the same side. Meeting these people was one of the best parts about it.

 

Amazing to hear that, and also that there is so much energy going for it! That brings me to my final question. What would you advise people and entrepreneurs like yourself at this time? What’s important to remember, important to do in order to bring this change? Do you have any final thoughts on that? 

 

 

Yeah, focus on the mission. Focus on the numbers and data, the sustainability data. Focus on the change that you’re actually making. Prove it, and then inspire other people to take part. I think that really, yeah.

 

And also – start, I would say.

 

Start doing. Don’t wait, just do it.

 

That’s the other thing.

 

We were fortunate with TAPP Water. We did a market test, quite a small one, but we didn’t hesitate. It was just a case of – this needs to start, this is needed, so let’s do it. I think that’s probably a good attitude to have.

 

At the moment, with the whole thing of this year of focusing on getting the filters back, we don’t have all the answers of what to do when we get them back in. But the first thing we need to do is start getting them back. Then we’ll work out the rest. It’s going to be possible. I don’t know how just yet, but it will be possible. I think that attitude rather than trying to work it all out first and then having all the answers. We don’t have the answers.

 

Yeah, the answers usually come as you start doing.

 

Right. Yeah, they kind of evolve. And then it’s less of a struggle, because then kind of like just happens.

 

Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful.
Thank you so much, Phil! That was so inspiring indeed. And so valuable to hear all of this.

 

Thank you. I think it’s helped me actually. So, thank you. I enjoyed it.

 

 

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